[bright music] - Announcer: The following program is a PBS Wisconsin original production.

- Angela Fitzgerald: Journalism can be a challenging place for many Black journalists.

For some, it's a balancing act, navigating authenticity while meeting the expectations of viewers, listeners, and readers.

This dynamic can reflect a larger tension, adapting to systems not built to include them while preserving the integrity of their voices and work.

Let's explore why race matters for Black journalists when it comes to authenticity and identity.

Black journalists have long played a crucial role in shaping narratives, amplifying voices, and holding power to account.

Yet their contributions have often been overlooked or undervalued in mainstream media.

Despite their influence, Black journalists continue to face systemic barriers.

According to a 2022 Pew Research Center study, only 6% of newsroom employees in the U.S. are Black, despite making up 14% of the U.S. population.

Black journalists are also underrepresented in leadership, with a 2021 American Society of News Editors survey showing that just 5.5% of newsroom managers are Black.

Additionally, Black journalists covering race-related issues often face harassment.

77% of journalists surveyed by the Intertnational Center for Journalists reported experiencing online abuse, with Black women being disproportionately targeted.

On this episode, we'll talk with journalists Earl Arms and Enjoyiana Nururdin about why race matters when it comes to being a Black journalist.

Well, Enjoyiana and Earl, thank you so much for being here with me tonight.

- Enjoyiana Nururdin: Thank you for having us.

- Earl Arms: Pleasure, thank you.

- And so, I guess to start off, can you tell us about your journalism story?

I guess, Enjoyiana, starting with you.

- Enjoyiana: Okay, sounds good.

I'd say I became a journalist when I was 13 years old.

I got early exposure through my high school newspaper, The Lance, at La Follette.

And I was able to skip science class and go do the newspaper as an eighth grader.

- Angela: That was an incentive.

- That was amazing.

And, you know, science isn't my specialty as a reporter, which is good.

But I was really blessed to be able to have that opportunity.

And then throughout high school, I ended up working with Simpson Street Free Press, which is a nonprofit in Madison, and they work to bridge the achievement gap.

And it was really amazing to work with younger students and older students, college students especially, and get that exposure.

And then went to UW-Madison, got into the journalism school, ended up getting involved with the Black Voice and National Association of Black Journalists.

And then I went to Columbia Journalism School in New York City, majored in politics there, and the rest is kind of history.

- Oh, wow, and you're back in Madison.

- Enjoyiana: I'm back in Madison, yeah.

- And tell us about the work you do here.

- Yeah, so I'm currently the local government reporter at The Cap Times in Madison.

And what's really cool about this opportunity is that I'm able to do city and county politics.

A lot of different things going on, but it's a really nice opportunity to work with people in my community and talk about the work that people on city council do, talk about the different things happening nationally, breaking it down statewide, breaking it down to the local level.

And I just think it's a really unique opportunity to be able to do that, especially because I'm from Madison, and Madison's changed a lot since I was a young 'un and since I was in college, and so I think it's nice to be on the cutting edge of all of those changes.

- Oh, wow, we're gonna circle back to some of those experiences that you've had and how it relates to the present day in a minute.

But, Earl, swinging to you, tell us about your journalism story.

- It's funny, it actually started when I was about 13, too, right around middle school, high school.

But I knew I loved sports, and I loved to talk, right?

So I wanted to be on SportsCenter.

I wanted to be Stuart Scott.

Like, that's what I wanted to do.

So I started off in journalism in that way, wanted to get into sports.

I did so throughout my time actually, in high school.

I was in a PEOPLE program working at WSUM or, yeah, WSUM.

And at college at UW-Whitewater, worked at WSUW, UWWTV.

So I was always in that space.

I was one of the fortunate people who was blessed to know what I wanted to do at an early age.

So from there, I was always working towards that, internships, you know, unpaid jobs, you know, trying to get my foot in the door.

Got my first job in Michigan, working in the Flint Saginaw market, doing sports there.

Got a chance to go home and do sports in Milwaukee, my hometown.

So that was great.

But of course, it ended up evolving into doing news.

Everyone always wants to take the Black man and put him in news or try and, you know, put him in that space.

I mean, we're so few and far between in that space.

So, naturally, I went to become a news anchor and reporter in Jackson, Mississippi.

Did that for a few years, and from there, I just kind of evolved into a, I guess, a more well-rounded communicator, right?

So I went into public relations, worked at the State Capitol, worked at the school district in Milwaukee.

Now I'm in the corporate space at Northwestern Mutual.

But, you know, from there, also host the show on PBS Milwaukee called Black Nouveau.

So I'm still in the space.

But certainly started when I was about 13 or 14.

Knew what I wanted to do, and I'm still doing it.

Blessed to be doing it.

- Wow, that's amazing.

And it does sound like that's an age that's pivotal for, you know, figuring out what you wanna do and getting on a path to becoming that thing, which, let's put a pin in that.

We can circle back to that maybe later in our conversation.

But I know we were talking about journalism and you all being professional journalists.

Can we define what that is for people who don't know?

I mean, I feel like we're familiar with the term, but exactly what that means may land differently for people, especially in the age of social media, where lots of people can share things online.

And, disclaimer, I personally don't identify as a journalist.

I did not go to J school.

I stumbled upon a great opportunity, and I consider myself more of a storyteller.

So I don't wanna at all feel like, "Oh, yeah, we're all the same."

No, I feel like y'all are the real, [laughs] the real people in this professional space.

But helping us understand exactly, like, what that is.

- You're older than me.

I'll let you take care of that one.

- Angela: She's deferring to her elder.

- My elder.

- Angela: That's respect.

- Earl: Respecting your elders?

Man, that is wild.

I don't know the last time I've been referred to as a elder, right?

No, let's see.

I would define it, I mean, you mentioned the storyteller.

And I will say this, too, Angela.

A lot of people who worked in journalism, one, didn't graduate high school or college.

You'd be surprised at how many people actually didn't graduate or weren't formally educated in journalism.

But also, those who were formally educated who didn't major in journalism.

I know English majors, music majors, people who were in other spaces but ended up in the journalism space because they love storytelling, they love people.

They love truth-telling and fact-finding.

So all of those things, I think, make a journalist.

And no matter where your background is or where you come from, everyone and anyone who has that passion can find their way in this space.

- I appreciate that, because you're right.

Not to gatekeep, right, and, like, prescribe that you have to go through certain channels to be official, because those channels are limiting, and accessibility's an issue.

And we'll get to representation in a bit.

But what is the line between someone who has a platform, they story-tell, and they're putting information out there, and maybe that information is good.

Question mark if it's credible, but, like, what distinguishes a professional journalist from someone who just has a platform and shares information with people?

- Fact versus fiction.

And I think what's really interesting about this idea of fact, and what I really appreciated about journalism growing up, was that there were so many different ways to explore that.

You have writing, you have the audible version.

You can, you know, watch something, and social media.

We're definitely seeing a lot of that now.

And I think what's really unique about journalism that's a little bit different, because content creation is journalism in a sense, depending on how you do it.

So there's a lot of these different avenues and mediums that journalists can explore.

And I think a lot of times, we bleed through those.

You know, there's times where you're writing something, and you're like, "I would rather hear it from your words and hear it from you."

Maybe that's a documentary.

Maybe that's a different form of storytelling.

But I think what's really unique about journalism is that the journalist is in the driver's seat, and you get to pick your sources.

You get to pick the people that you want to help you tell the story along the way.

There's the age-old conversation about objectivity versus subjectivity.

And I think we're starting to see a lot of people come to those conclusions and define what they, you know, what they want to make subjective or objective.

But I think that's where I would kind of draw the line.

- Hmm, I appreciate that.

Is there anything you wanna add?

- I was just gonna say, I'll add to that.

I don't want folks to think that you don't necessarily have to have any formal training of sorts to be a journalist.

I think that is important.

You mentioned fact-finding or you mentioned trust.

I think having formal training in a sense helps you get that, right?

Being consistent, looking for the facts, presenting those facts and doing so in an objective way, right?

Or, you know, trying to, you know, be neutral.

And when it comes to storytelling, I don't necessarily think that's always the case or you can always do that, but certainly doing the best you can to tell an unbiased story and doing so in a factual way.

So I think that's where kind of the line is.

There's definitely trust, but I do think there has to be some type of formal training, whether it's through schooling, whether it's through the first job that you have, being taught, but just having some type of structure or learning to, how you're trained to tell a story, I think is important.

- Mm, that's a good point because otherwise, like you said, the floodgates could essentially open, and there's information that could be presented as factual that's not.

- Press that live button and just going off telling a story.

You know, "I'm a journalist, yeah."

Reporting live on the corner and all that, yeah, so... - But that's not to negate, right, how, 'cause I know we're poking fun a little bit at social media, but the significance of those mediums in providing information that maybe mainstream news outlets wouldn't share or wouldn't touch on.

So I guess, how do you navigate that, like, the acknowledgment of the importance of those spaces and how that connects to the lack of representation in your respective fields?

- That's a good question.

- I try.

- Enjoyiana: That's a good question.

- I'ma let you mull on that, but what I'll say, I guess, is, I mean, people will ask all the time, right?

You know, "Where do you go for your news?"

Or "What's the best place to go for your news?"

And I'll say, "The streets."

Go right to the people, go right to the source, right?

And social media has done the job of truly exposing that and giving it to the world.

I mean, think of like, Mike Brown, George Floyd.

Those incidents would have never been known or, you know, or out there as much as they have been if it weren't for social media.

So, definitely, it's important.

And I tell younger journalists all the time, utilize social media, take advantage of it, right?

I mean, you're gonna get a lot more truth there because it's closer to the streets than it is any other source, right?

So, using social media to, you know, find stories, find what's out there, and get to that truth, right?

And doing so in a way that's not biased.

And, you know, you're not adding your objectivity to it.

It's just, you know, it's out there, it's what's happening.

So when I say, you know, Facebook Live or Instagram Live, whatever you're doing, I mean, it's important, because you're showing the truth in and of itself.

The nakedness of, you know, whatever's happening, right?

So definitely, social media is a platform that is important, and it's elevated the ability to tell a story.

- Mm.

- Yeah, I would add transparency to that and accountability, because I think when you get to social media, it's "question everything" still, because we've seen with AI, which is a whole 'nother conversation, a whole 'nother conversation.

- Angela: Yes, yes.

But now there's all these dangers and threats of, "Well, you said this, and they said this."

And so you still have to kind of, in part of transparency, laying it out on the line, he said, she said, the official said, but being able to inquire and question those things, and I think even as a journalist, you still have to question yourself like, "Am I going about this the right way, or did I word this correctly?"

And some of it is, you know, line editing and making sure that you really are specifically saying things the way that you want them to be.

But also, part of it comes from the fairness and the balance.

Especially in my role as a political reporter, in a sense, you have to make sure you're, if, what did someone say?

If one person says the sky is purple, and the other person says the sky is green, your job isn't just to say, "One person said this and one person said that."

Go outside and look and say, "What color is the sky?"

And that happens a lot in politics.

But I think part of it and what I hope people understand when we read the news and we see the news, is that people are going about and gathering other information to add some context to it.

I use a lot of food analogies, and let's say a sandwich is two pieces of bread, but what's in between those two pieces of bread?

What exactly, what makes the sandwich?

Is a taco a sandwich?

Is a hot dog a sandwich?

Inquiring minds wanna know.

But it's all about how you present that argument.

And there's a little bit of the reporting process that goes in with that.

And there's a little bit of the coloring and, you know, arranging the lettuce to look a certain way.

But I think that's part of what makes journalism so cool is those different mediums, 'cause sometimes the Facebook Live or the live that a politician puts out on the internet is, we can source that, we can quote that.

But then it's also following up and saying, "I wanna know what you said about this," or "Tell me more about this," and that's how you add that extra information.

- Thank you both for that.

These are amazing responses, by the way.

Thank you.

What would you say is the significance of your presence in the professional journalism space, and how does that connect to what your experiences have been like?

- I think-- I'll start.

I'll try to talk through a little bit of my personal, my personal story.

So, going to college during the pandemic was a really unique experience, because I got a lot of exposure to community activism, college activism, academia, playing academia and advocating for certain things, and interviewing the chancellor of the university at the time, and experiences like that.

And then also, on a personal level, I'm a human being, too.

And I think during the pandemic, we started to see, as a community, the blurring of those lines and figuring out what does it mean to put yourself first as a journalist.

And I think that being in that space and showing up in that professional space as a young professional was really important, because I could still advocate and say, "This is what people are experiencing, this is how I feel, and this is what needs to happen."

And on the bare level, if my mental health is not okay, I cannot go in as a journalist and be okay.

But what part of that meant was acknowledging racism, and it meant acknowledging that as a Black person, I'm just not okay right now, and that's okay.

And so going into the professional industry during the pandemic and going to graduate school, there were times at school where I had to question my professor, and I'm paying here.

I'm paying to be here to learn about journalism, about politics.

And you have a professor say things, as an example, as "Emmett Till was the last lynching."

And I'm like, "Um, no, that's not right."

And having to, 2021, you know, and having to be the only Black woman in my class, be one of few Black people at Columbia, and be in that space where, okay, whoosh, I have to lock in.

- Angela: Mm-hmm.

- That's not right, I know that's not right.

And that doesn't mean I need to pull up the latest lynching in the United States of America.

But even having my professor question, "Oh, do you mean like the killing of unarmed Black men?"

And I'm like, "Well, yeah, that's one example."

But you're talking to a group of international students who are also not as exposed to it as you are as an American professor.

And so that's just an example that I say, where sometimes I take off the journalist hat and I'm like, "We just need to talk one-on-one, "and we need to just be up-front about the way that we perceive the world around us."

And as a journalist, you have the privilege to do that.

And so showing up in those spaces, it took a lot of adjusting for me, because there are moments where it was like, were you silent or were you silenced?

And I was both.

But I had to figure out where that line was for me and figure out how I was gonna show up not just for myself, not just for the next person, but just in general, across the board.

Yeah.

- Yeah, I would see how newsrooms would operate.

Like I said, I came up doing sports, but I would go into newsroom meetings and I would see how stories were pitched, how, you know, managers decided to go and cover a story.

And a lot of times, I was either the only Black person or one of very few.

And, you know, I would notice certain things, right?

And even like when I started doing news and covering news and seeing how people covered stories, there was not a lot of humanity when it came to our stories, right?

You would go, you know, be afraid to go into the neighborhood, one.

Two, be afraid to talk to people.

Just take the word of the police or take the word of an official, but not wanting to talk to the people in the neighborhood, right?

You know, what happened?

What goes on here?

Asking the extra question or two, right, instead of just talking about this incident.

I would think of a lot of times where folks would go out and just, you know, stick a mic in someone's face and just say, "Hey, what happened?

Why'd this person die?"

Or, you know, "What happened here?

Why did he get shot?"

Or whatever.

But really humanizing the people in that community, right?

You know, this person was a brother, a sister, you know, a mother, you know, someone that people cared for, right?

So, you know, asking those questions, what made this person special?

What makes this person unique?

Or, you know, what makes this person like, why are you gonna miss this person, right?

So in thinking about those things, it just really made me want to make a difference or impact in that way, just to really humanize our experience, right?

Because, you know, otherwise, you know, another shooting or another homicide, another crime, this, that, and the other is just a blur.

You just cover it and move on, right?

But, I mean, these are real life people who are affected and impacted.

So giving people a voice and giving them a humanity that typically they wouldn't get if there wasn't a representation of them in the newsroom space.

- And if I can add to that, I have another anecdote.

And the people in the community in Harlem, in New York, when I was in grad school, one assignment was, you know, I was covering a woman who built this boutique out of a box truck, and I wrote about her.

And my professor was like, "Okay, go talk to more people."

And I was like, "Okay, sure."

Not everybody had a box truck, but I can go talk to a lot of the vendors on 125th Street in Harlem, which was really cool.

And I came into the situation where somebody didn't wanna talk to me, and I was like, "Why?

What did I do?"

And he was like, "Because you Columbia students come here all the time, "all the time, ask us questions, "put the microphone in your face, and then you leave, "and we don't hear anything else.

"We don't hear anything else from anyone.

We don't see any product."

And I was like, "Thank you for sharing this."

And I have to take a moment and recognize my privilege even as a young Black woman walking up and down 125th Street.

And I ended up telling him, I was like, "Thank you for sharing your experience.

"You know, I'm really sorry that that happened to you, "because I would think that they would stay in contact with you.

"Even if it is just for an assignment, "they would reach out to you "and let you know that this is just for an assignment.

It's not going out for publication or whatever."

And I ended up talking with him a little bit more.

He ended up talking with me, and I'm very grateful that he shared his story with me.

But I had to break that wall and take the journalist hat off again.

And even with talking with my professor about my experience and for example, not feeling safe walking up and down 125th Street, because I'm a young Black woman, and there's a lot of things happening.

And it was a little bit about challenge.

And so I think the importance of showing up is challenging the status quo.

It is recognizing, "I know you've been doing it "this way for a long time.

"I know this is the standard.

I don't think this is the standard for everyone."

And I think, you know, why race matters, everybody has their own experience.

What works for me as Enjoyiana does not work for the next person.

And so being able to also honor your humanity in that role was really important, too.

- Absolutely, and what you shared, like, I feel like an identical sentiment has been shared in the field of research, in terms of Black people are underrepresented, our communities are underrepresented in research.

But our communities are resistant, because there's a history of distrust and just this idea of extraction.

Like, "You come, you get our stories "and you go back to your ivory tower, and you publish, "and you do all the things.

"We never hear from you until it's, another opportunity for you presents."

So how to really authentically connect, because both of you shared kind of this theme of care.

Like, how are we approaching the work we do with care, which is so important, because our communities are used to being exploited for the benefit of others.

Because even for this show, I try to be very sensitive about, A, not trying to put people in vulnerable positions, trying to have representation, because it's easy to just kind of grab people that are always talked to about certain things.

It's like, well, yes, that's great.

I appreciate your expertise, but who else can we talk to?

But then those people may not be the ones that are always the most camera ready or have all the talking points.

So how do you help them with their comfortability and also them showing up as their best self on camera?

And then also how to not reinforce those despair narratives, which sometimes we can lead with because that makes people care.

But it can also reinforce this negativity that we're all downtrodden, and the statistics are all like this.

And that's a delicate dance here, I would say on this show, because we need to provide the context as to why do we even need to have the conversation, but we don't want to just leave it there.

So I guess using that as a follow up, A, do you feel like as a Black journalist, you are either desiring or are given specific types of stories?

And then within that realm, do you feel like you have to navigate that space of how best to present the story in a way that honors, like you said, the humanity and the lived reality of those you're talking about, even if there is some negativity in there, not just that being the only part that's elevated.

- I've been, certainly with my job now, I, you know, I mean, we cover Black stories.

So, I mean, and most of the news is positive, right?

So, I mean, in that sense, I don't have to worry about that.

But I was fortunate to work in a newsroom where I don't feel like I was given, at least when I was working specifically with news where I was, you know, given a particular story for a particular reason or, you know, "This happened in a Black neighborhood.

You go handle that and do this, that."

I mean, of course, you know, I could, and I would, but I don't think that necessarily was my reality.

What I will say is, I think that even the people in the community, they have to see you trying, right?

'Cause you're not always gonna get it right.

But they have to see that the effort's there.

If you're coming into a neighborhood, you've never been there before, you're probably never gonna go again, people are gonna know it, and it's gonna show in your actions.

Like, the body language tells everything.

If you're uncomfortable, people are gonna know it.

But if you've already been there, if you've been to the schools to talk to the kids, if you know people in the community, right, then it makes it that much easier for you to be there and tell a story, and it makes it that much easier for them to feel comfortable talking to you.

Like you mentioned, being TV ready or just, you know, in a position to want to talk to you.

And it makes them that much more comfortable, and it will present itself that much better.

So I think you just really have to have that effort of being there.

I mentioned the humanity, but certainly being in the neighborhood, in the space and just showing yourself, showing that you do actually care.

- Yeah, I would say in my particular beat, I don't cover racial issues, but I think being a Black woman from Madison helps influence certain things, and I'm like, ah, this might be impacting a certain demographic more than others, which is nice.

- Mm-hmm.

- And I think that there have been situations where I've been talking with sources, people in certain positions, and they've been, you know, off the record.

But, like, having that moment and having that space to just be a person helped me also influence the reporting that I then did, because they could also say, "Okay, "I wanna talk to you as a person," and then will influence the rest of the reporting.

But then there's also been times where they've told me transparently, "We don't trust the media, and we don't like the media, because X, Y, and Z."

And it was still listening and having that moment and figuring out, "Okay, what's the delicate dance that I'm gonna do with this story?"

Or "How do I go, and, okay, I need a little bit more time to do this story," because it would not be okay if I did not add this extra context.

So it's a little bit of a delicate balance, especially with politics, because you say one thing, and people will hold that against you forever, but also you're dealing with people's lives and people's stories.

And so there's a sense of responsibility.

- And I'll add to that, too, because when people say they don't trust the media, and I'll give them that validation, because I get it.

I understand it.

Like, and people will have reasons for not trusting media for all the reasons that we've mentioned, right?

So just really giving people that validation, that validation, letting them know, I get why you don't trust media, I understand that, but, know that, you know, I'm here.

Not to say, "I'm not like them, I'm not like those folks."

You know, I'm not trying to put it that way.

But really in a sense of, you know, I live here or I'm here.

I'm in this community, like, you know, in some cases, it's like, you know, "I'm the same skin color.

"Like, you know, we both Black, like, you know, like, "I get it, I understand, you know, "or at least I'm gonna try to, right?

"But at the very least, "know that I'm gonna give you your humanity.

"I'm gonna show people that, you know, you are a human being.

"You are real, and you have feelings, too, just like everyone else."

- I love that, and what's been some of the feedback you've gotten from people as a result of the way that you approach your work?

- Oh, people love it.

Like, you know, people will, you know, they'll either, you know, call me or, you know, having sources is so important.

I'm sure you know.

But, you know, when people know they can trust you, and they can tell you things off the record, and you're not just gonna go and spew it just because you might have the lead on a particular story.

- Enjoyiana: The scoop.

- Earl: Yeah, you have the scoop.

Then I think that goes a long way, because while you may win that particular day or that particular moment with the story, you jeopardize your credibility in that community going forward.

So really just thinking about it in that sense, I think helps when it comes to storytelling.

And, yeah, it's worked out for me, I guess.

I'm doing all right.

[Angela laughs] - Absolutely, and I love that you mentioned your show, Black Nouveau?

- Black Nouveau, yeah.

- That you get to tell stories about Black joy.

So I feel like that also helps.

- Earl: Absolutely.

- Especially in your city, where there's that stereotype.

- Right, right, right.

You know, everyone knows that it's a space where you can go.

And if you have something going on, you can go and not only have it talked about in a positive way, but also have the time to be able to talk about it, right?

It's being able to breathe and share everything that happens, because I worked in a lot of newsrooms, right, where stories are minute, minute 10.

I mean, like, how, is that really long enough to tell an accurate story, right?

- Angela: That's true.

- So just being able to have the space and the capacity to tell the whole story, or to get to telling a whole story, right?

- And enforcing that the story deserves to be told, like-- - Earl: Absolutely.

- Advocating and telling people this matters.

I deserve to talk about this, they deserve to have this.

And so I think even in just like you mentioned a minute, a minute and 30 seconds, like, that's the "tradition" of news.

But I think those other mediums are other spaces where you can combine all of those other things and give people their time to shine, and people love to see it.

Like, I think people are like, "Make sure you send me a newspaper."

And I'm like, "I got you."

- Aww.

- And so in my medium, it's a little bit different because we really do have maybe not a minute and 15 seconds, but you have this much space, and so trying to navigate that.

But I also really appreciate the digital aspect where you can, you know, flush it out a little bit longer.

- Well, to your point, Enjoyiana, in terms of validating that the story needs to be told, that goes back to our representation point of who gets to decide what stories are told?

Like, there are gatekeepers who determine like, yep, that's newsworthy.

Nope, that's not.

So hopefully, you being in that space helps lend voice to, like, that's a valid story.

There's a community that needs to hear this.

I can help facilitate, you know, this story being told in a way that's authentic to who needs to receive it.

So if you want to add anything more to the representation piece, otherwise we can-- - I would say it's so important.

I didn't have Black representation in leadership until I got to Columbia.

And my master's thesis advisor was Jelani Cobb, and I was like, "Oh, my gosh, a Black man, a Black person who gets it, who understands."

And so that was a really gratifying experience, being in that institution and feeling like, "I'm just depressed all the time.

"But I know that there's a person who gets it.

I know that there's a person who understands it."

And also just talking about the history and going into the history and having someone who understands that is really important.

- I think you mentioned it, too.

I mentioned about, like, speaking up or knowing, like, what stories need to be told, or even in some cases, you know, what things need to be said in a newsroom, talking about deciding what stories to tell and what shouldn't be told.

I found myself a few times, even as the sports guy, going into a news meeting, right, like, "I probably wouldn't approach it this way," or, you know, "I would probably do this."

And having folks come to me after the meeting saying, "You should come to our news meetings more often.

You offer a lot of value."

And I'm like, "Okay, well, I mean, I would like to."

I mean, I know I have my own thing going on, but certainly thinking about it from that sense, just knowing, if the community knows that you're in these newsrooms and you're fighting their battles or at least speaking up for them in that space, then that goes even further as far as that trust goes, right?

Because I mentioned, yeah, like we're the same color, but like, you know, all skin folk ain't kinfolk, right?

So, you know, you got to not only, you know, play a part, but also, you know, advocate, you know?

And you can't be afraid to do that, because if you are, like I said, it'll show up.

You will go out in the community, and people will know it, and they will expose you.

- And representation includes your looks, like, being-- I wanted to be a TV girly, so I had the opportunity to intern for the Today show in New York, and I was like, "Aah, oh, my gosh!"

And I was so happy and so excited.

And then when I came back to Madison, I worked at a TV station, and it was a totally different experience.

And I did not expect that experience.

But there are a lot of things that I learned about the politics of the newsroom that play a role into racism and race and journalism.

And even the community that I'm from, that was just a totally different experience.

So that was something else I wanted to add.

But, 'cause TV is different.

TV is different.

It's a different monster.

- Earl: That's real.

- Angela: Absolutely.

- Enjoyiana: Yeah.

- And that's, yeah, when I first kind of stepped into this journalism space, it was interesting, 'cause again, I don't have a background in any of this.

I was doing community work, and the opportunity presented itself.

But I remember getting some feedback, because I stepped into the role of hosting a show that did not have a host prior.

It was just all voiceovers and like, produced stuff, didn't have a person to, like, guide the viewer along the episode.

So they introduced me as the host.

I remember one of the pieces of feedback that someone wrote in and said, "When I saw that Angela was going to be the host, "I thought it was gonna be different.

But she's all right."

And I'm thinking like, "Okay, so what are they actually--" - What do you mean by that?

- Was I not quite like, should I have worn, like, bigger earrings, been more of like the stereotype or like, what are you actually trying to say?

But it was interesting, just kind of navigating that space of acknowledging, I'm a Black person that's on TV, on public television, in a very white state.

And I am in some case low key, but not "aggressively Black."

Like, my hair is what it is.

I mean, like, I am just who I am.

- Enjoyiana: Ooh, mm-hmm.

- Earl: Okay.

- Angela: So I'm not changing that.

So this is me.

But also, yes, I'm here to show the state off.

So it was just, it's been very interesting.

And sometimes, that still comes back up in terms of stories or just feedback.

But I will say, the team here has been very supportive of me.

I have not felt like I needed to change anything about myself, other than the pronunciation of certain cities that I didn't know that's how it was said.

- Enjoyiana: Oh, they will tell you about that.

- 'Cause I'm not originally from Wisconsin, so they had to fix how I said certain things.

Other than that, I felt like I could show up as my full self, but it was still navigating what I felt like I was being perceived as by the core audience.

- I faced the battle of facial hair going into TV because I wanted to-- I basically had this facial hair since early 20s, right, could grow a full beard when I was in grad school.

But I wanted to keep it not necessarily because of aesthetics, but really-- Well, yeah, it was aesthetics, right?

You know, Black man, I get razor bumps, right?

So, you know, I wasn't trying to deal with that, right?

But, you know, when I was coming up in TV, everyone's clean shaven.

You know, you gotta be clean shaven.

You gotta look the part.

I've had consultants, I've had people tell me directly, you know, ""n the Black community, beards might matter, "but you're not anchoring, you're not reporting to the Black community."

I've had other consultants tell me, like, "Your beard threatens me.

"When you don't have your facial hair, "I don't feel threatened by you.

But when I see a beard, I'm threatened by you."

I'm like, "Okay, just call me Willie Horton, why don't you?"

You know, just like, dang.

Like, I fit the description?

Like, is that what you saying?

Like-- - Very specific feedback.

- No, and that's TV.

It's so subjective, right?

It's about, you know, the colors you're wearing, how you look, the facial expressions you're making.

You mentioned, you know, pronouncing words or, you know, the way you enunciate.

I mean, they're looking at every little detail.

And I get it, because it's an investment, right?

But I mean, we're talking, like, my humanity here, talking humanity again.

So in thinking about that, it's like, yeah, I don't wanna be, you know, the angry Black man.

But also, you know, I don't wanna have to, you know, walk around or, you know, be shown on television having everyone see me, and my face is all bumpy, and I gotta, you know, throw on all this makeup over all these bumps and then, you know, it makes it that much more unhealthy for my skin.

So, you know, you gotta kind of fight those battles, too.

And, you know, I like to say I, you know, kind of paved the way a little bit, 'cause now you seeing people with facial hair and all types of stuff.

So I'm like, look, okay, I'm glad, right, you know, that we kind of evolved from a point of everyone kind of looking cookie cutter and making a Black man or even Black women in cases, you know, with the hair, trying to look the part of someone that, you know, doesn't have, what is it?

I forget the type of hair you call it, but, you know, we got, you know, curly hair.

What is it, C2 or, I forget.

- Oh, you talking about the grade, the 4Cs?

- Earl: Exactly, yeah, the grade.

- Enjoyiana: The 3Bs and the 3Cs.

- Yep, yep, whatever grade of hair we have, right?

You know, it grows back into the skin.

So just really thinking about it from that sense and, you know, just, you know, trying to represent in that way, too.

- Yeah, I'm unapologetically Black, and I can't hide it.

And it's funny that you mention you don't wanna be the angry Black man.

Sometimes I wanna be the angry Black woman.

'Cause what are you gonna say about my hair?

It looks the way it looks.

But, you know, I do my job, and I did the best that I could.

And so it's a shame that society, and I know we're talking about Wisconsin, but, you know, it's a shame that Black people, Black journalists are scrutinized so much that if your hair isn't done, you don't even feel like doing anything, because you just don't feel presentable.

That goes into presentability politics.

That goes into colorism and the 3Bs and the 3Cs and all of that stuff.

And so I'm grateful that I've gotten to a place in my personal hood, my personal individual Enjoyiana, that I'm gonna wear my braids.

I'm gonna wear my hair how I want to.

I actually try to do more braids, more protective styles.

Because what I'm not gonna do is be late to a meeting 'cause I need to re-flatiron my hair.

That's not, that just doesn't make sense.

Then I'm known for being late for whatever.

So you're gonna get me, all of me, 100% of me.

And I think that it took a while to get there.

But, you know, pave the way.

- Angela: Absolutely.

I appreciate both of you being trailblazers in that way, in terms of "I'm gonna show up authentically as myself, "and I'll work through what that may mean for you, "but ultimately, you're gonna get the best of me if you allow me to show up as me," because that's who you want, I assume, right?

You asked me to be here.

- Exactly.

- Angela: So don't take away from that experience by then trying to control how it is that I show up.

And I know earlier in our prior conversation, we were talking about acknowledging our own identities and how that can show up in terms of the work that we do.

So I know sometimes that references like a positionality statement.

So like, what are all the things about me?

So I'm putting my researcher hat a little bit, but like, as a researcher, I'm all these things, and that's gonna influence what I'm interested in studying and how I approach what I'm trying to study.

So I'm a Black woman in the Midwest who identifies as cis hetero and dot, dot, dot, dot, dot.

So in thinking about, I mean, I know we've been talking about race, right, you as Black people, but also, there's privilege.

There's other sorts of things that also influence how we show up and do what we do.

So how do you personally manage or at least create awareness around like, yes, I am a representative, I'm doing things and also in service to my community, but I'm not the sole voice, the sole, like, reflection of my entire community?

- So each one teach one, or just really reaching back, right, and just not being shy about it.

I know people who, especially in TV, because we can be so, what's the word I'm thinking of?

You know, kind of be full of ourselves, right?

You know, to where, you know, we don't wanna talk to anyone else, or, you know, we made it.

We're in front of the camera.

You know, anyone else is like, you know, take an appointment or, you know, what have you, just being that type of person.

- Oh, that's how I'm supposed to be acting?

- Uh, yeah.

- Okay, I'm gonna work on that.

I didn't get that memo, so now I know, okay.

- No, but I think really, just like you mentioned NABJ or, you know, just having younger people who want to, who may see you, right?

'Cause, I mean, I think about people who I used to watch, right, talking about representation and how important that is, thinking about people I watched and who I reached out to and people who poured into me, right?

So why wouldn't I pour into the next generation, right?

So, yeah, I mean, there's room for all of us to eat, right?

There's not, you know, just one plate.

Only one of us can, you know, have this job or, you know, be in this space and there's no room for anyone else.

No, we all have a purpose because we all bring a different perspective.

Yeah, we're the same skin color.

Our hair may be the same texture.

We may even wear the same clothes or, you know, have all those similarities, but our experiences and how we take in information is different.

How we tell stories are different, right?

So even the diversity within that is so important within our community to where it can't just be myself having the lone opinion for Black people within a particular community, right?

So yeah, I think just really encouraging others, empowering others to not only come up in this space, but to be able to be their authentic selves in this space as well.

- Yeah, that's really important.

I think I like to use that in my interviews as well because I let everybody kind of, you know, decompress like, it's okay, you know, and I like that you mentioned, you know, different parts of your identity because I ask everyone, okay, name, pronouns.

How do you pronounce your name?

'Cause I know what it's like for people to not know how to say my name.

So I try to give people that same grace and say, you know, you're allowed to be yourself.

And then I think sometimes it's a little bit of compartmentalizing where, okay, "I know that this article is about this.

I'm gonna have to talk about this."

But then that's when we have that conversation and say, okay, "In the future, what can we do?"

Or "How would you like to go about this in the future?"

And I think that gives space for people to also not feel like they have to have it all together at the same time, because as Black people, like I said, we have so much scrutiny on us, we feel like we have to be 100% all the time, and that's not realistic.

And so I think giving my sources the opportunity to be themselves and then also give me other connections.

Who else would you recommend that I talk to?

Because you may have a network and another community that maybe I'm not a part of.

And I think that that also helps bridge those gaps too.

So then everybody knows, "Oh, wait, you know such-and-such?

I know such-and-such," like we were talking about the stuff earlier.

And so it's, [laughs] it's just cool because it's like, the world is really as big as you make it, and it's really as small as you make it.

So you gotta pop your bubble and be a part of the world.

- 'Cause we all cousins, right?

- We all cousins.

- When it comes down to it.

- Hey, cuz, like, you talk about the plate.

Like, sometimes it's really, you want me to get a plate for you 'cause I understand, you know, like sometimes making those connections.

And so people have been asking me, like, "Do you know anybody, or can I talk to you?"

And I was like, "Oh, my gosh, now I'm the person connecting people."

And it was that weird moment of like, wow, young adulting.

But, you know, our generations are starting to blend a lot more.

And I think, talking about social media, I think social media also helps to do that.

- It's only gonna increase as you get older.

- I know.

- Just so you know.

- Enjoyiana: I know.

- Angela: You the go-to person.

I love that.

How do you all take care of you?

- I just learned that my company has an employee assistance program, so I will be taking advantage.

- Angela: Yes.

- And also just, I try to do a lot of scheduling and time management so that okay, when I'm working, I'm working, which doesn't help when you have two phones, but when I'm working, I'm working.

And then when I'm not, I'm not.

And I've started to feed my inner child and play video games and watch cartoons and go cycling and do really silly things, but things that genuinely fill me with joy.

And that does branch outside of politics.

It does branch outside of the community a little bit.

So like, getting the chance to go travel and just not plan everything.

Like, I have to completely turn my brain off sometimes.

It helps to have a good support system, helps to have good family and friends who know that you're doing politics, who know that you're doing stuff, who sometimes you have to tell 'em, "Don't talk to me about work.

"Don't ask me about this.

"I know we wanna talk about it, but I don't wanna talk about it."

And sometimes, I have to get out of that habit of just shutting down as well.

So I mentioned I was in grad school, I got therapy, and it was really, really helpful to talk to someone.

And she was a Black woman, and I was like, "Oh, my gosh, this is so cool."

And so having those systems where you also can find mentorship and other people, regardless of what their identities are, but just to decompress and say, "I wanna talk about this," or "I don't wanna talk about this."

And I think part of that, too, is learning when you need to take a break, because there was a period in my career where I was like, "I am not gonna be a journalist right now."

And I had to, I was staying with family in Illinois and I was working at a bookstore, and it was so much fun and I made the best connections, but I really needed that.

My spirit needed that because when I went back into journalism, I was able to go 100.

I was able to be my best self.

And so finding those opportunities to still do what you love to do.

I mentioned food and food journalism, but I love to cook.

So cooking and being intentional when I'm meal prepping or being intentional when I'm reading books.

I still gotta read my politics.

I still gotta know what's going on, but still finding the time to consume other forms of content and also unplug and not watch anything and not do anything related to journalism.

- Mm, that's good.

- I don't know, Enjoyiana, how much I can add to that.

I mean, you shared a lot of it, right?

Just in my case, it's having those boundaries, right?

Because like I mentioned, you know, being a sports anchor and, you know, being a sports reporter, I love sports.

But, you know, you do too much of one thing or you do much-- Yeah, you do too much of a job and it becomes work no matter what it is, right?

So, you know, having space to, you know, I can watch my football, I can watch my basketball, I can, you know, play my, play ball, play tennis.

But not have to think about it in a work sense, right?

You mentioned gaming, I'm a gamer.

I like, you know, having the space to, you know, play video games, having a support system of mentors, of course, of family, friends who understand what you do, but also understand, look, there's a time to talk about it, and then there's a time to just let me be me.

And, you know, you do you.

And let's just be ourselves in this space.

We don't necessarily have to involve work or anything, but really just having those boundaries, right?

And like you said, having help, right?

You know, being able to talk to a therapist, talk to someone that's a professional who can understand and help you decompress and really give you those strategies to really get into a better mental space.

- Mm-hmm, I love that.

- And storytelling has become a therapeutic practice in and of itself, and I think my role less of that in the reporting space.

But on the side, finding opportunities to do storytelling because as we're having conversation, I'm like, "This is so healing."

And it doesn't have to be an article.

It doesn't have to be a podcast.

It doesn't have to be something.

So in addition to the creating content of my job, creating content or finding opportunities to just have that kinship with other people, 'cause that's really what humanity is.

- Absolutely, and that's, as you say that, like, having conversations like this is healing.

And I'm on the way here like, "I am tired."

I just worked today.

I might have had class too, and I'm tired up to the point that we start vibing, and then that tiredness goes away.

Like, I'm in it.

I feel tired afterwards, but you're right, getting something out of connecting with people who are in the state that I live in, who are having similar experiences, but who are still doing dope work to make Wisconsin what we all want it to be.

That does something, so I appreciate you all.

Y'all are part of the reason why I'm still here.

[laughs] So thank you.

Yeah, thank you.

- That's how you know you're in the right space, right?

Because when you get into that space where you're talking about it or you're storytelling and it just kind of clicks, and that light comes on and you just go, and you're not even thinking about it, right, 'til it's time to, you know, cut or whenever it's over, then it's "Okay.

I can kind of..." I can go to sleep or chill.

- Right.

- But within that space, I mean, it shows that it's something that, you know, you want to do and that you love to do and that you belong.

- Angela: Absolutely.

Thank you all so much.

Definitely appreciate you, your time, and being in community with you.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- For Black journalists, navigating the challenges we talked about today is more than a balancing act.

It's a testament to resilience, authenticity, and the pursuit of truth in a space where their voices are needed.

As media continues to evolve, inclusivity and equity are important not just for those telling the stories, but for the audiences relying on them.

Watch additional episodes and content at whyracematters.org.

[bright music] - Announcer: Funding for Why Race Matters is provided by Park Bank, UnityPoint Health Meriter, UW Health, donors to the Focus Fund for Wisconsin programs, and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.